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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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 Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 10:50:46 PM
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OK Problem: Drove to school one day and all was fine...went to drive home car wont start...seemed it was out of fuel but this wasnt possible since i had put $40 in and only driven 120km. I didnt think it was out of fuel but it turned out it was so my cars either leaking or someone got into my tank but i dont know if that is possible. I cant see a leak any where but it could be it was only leaking under pressure but it ran out during the day so??? its got me stuffed.
It ran out again today after i put $20 in it yesterday and i have only gone like 30km. I got it going again but now its running really bad and is worse to drive than a bloody hyundai..haha
So any idea's n what could be wrong? Im taking it off the road for now until i or a mechanic sorts it out because leaking fuel and exhuast or some other hot thing=not good.
Any help would be appreciated as im still learing about this car. Cheers
PS: sorry about the long post!
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 8:06:16 PM
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It is possible that someone is pinching your petrol, but it's really unlikely. So I think we can pretty much rule that one out. :)
As for the problem, it sounds like it's running rich, and I don't mean a little rich, I mean CRAZY rich. At a rough guess, I'm thinking that you paid about $1.35c/L for the fuel, that works out to be about 30L of fuel, over 120km that gives you about 25L/100km. That's crap...still not as bad as the V8 supercars though (60L/100km, roughly).
Since it's running as badly as it is, check out the plugs, leads, air filter and throttle body for starters. I'd also be checking your O2 sensor. Because this sounds exactly like an O2 sensor that's let go.
Because you say you're still learning, here's a bit more of an explanation:
Checking the t/b will see just how dirty it is in there, it's good practice to keep the t/b as clean as possible inside, and that includes the idle air control valve. The dirtier the inside of the t/b the worse the idle is.
The O2 sensor monitors oxygen levels in the exhaust gasses, and uses this information (as well as a few others) to calculate any adjustments to the air-fuel ratio. If the O2 sensor packs up (actually WHEN the O2 sensor packs up), it causes the engine to run rich all the time, which results in a MASSIVE jump in fuel usage. Typically up to anywhere between 18L/100km to 28L/100km. So you're in that range. The O2 sensor is located in the top of the passengers side exhaust manifold. To see where it is, lift the bonnet, and look (get a torch) down past the big black air intake tube to the exhaust. You'll see something in the top of it that looks kinda like a spark plug, it's the only thing there, and it's only (typically) got one wire running to it. They cost about $70 from Repco or Bursons, and take SFA to change.
All of that said, if you think that you've got a fuel leak, get it checked out, because the last thing that anyone wants is to see a car on fire. I'm going with it being a busted O2 sensor as the most likely explanation though.
BTW: Don't say sorry for a long post, the longer the post the more detail you can give. The more detail you can give, the easier it is to help.  |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
Edited by - mouce on 04 Aug 2006 8:07:04 PM |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 11:15:07 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I thought about some one ripping my fuel but it doesnt seem like some one has tried to force my cap open so yeah that one is gone. My o2 sensor is very possible as i have never looked at it. btw i wish fuel was 1.35/L, its more like 1.58/L here for premium. I havent found any evidence of a fuel leak but fuel evaporates so its still possible. Hopefully im getting a workshop manual tomorro and i can get some ideas from that. I think replacing the o2 sensor is a good move because even if it is not that it probably will need replacing in the near future so why not now.
I took my car for a test today after resetting the computer and that seemed to make a differance but its still not like it used to be.
Anyway cheers for the advice and if you have any more sugestions i would be happy to har them as i miss my VN! haha cheers |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 09:44:02 AM
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If resetting the computer made a bit of a difference, then I would really recommend that you clean out the throttle body, and then reset the ecu again. It won't cure the problem, but it will help make things a whole lot nicer at idle.
Is the car a bit of a whore to start? Might be leaking injectors if it is.
Unless you've got a rather large hole in the tank I don't see that vaporation can be making you loose that much fuel. The fuel system in a VN is almost completely sealed from the atmosphere (EPA regulations), it can vent a little through the pressure release valve on the tank, but as soon as the pressure settles back down, the vent closes.
I'm going with the O2 sensor being most likely, then after that maybe a dodgy plug/lead.
1.58$/L for PULP? Damn that sucks, I'm paying $1.46/L for PULP here. Still it's worth it, cheaper than running ULP. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 5:13:49 PM
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OK after some testing today i and a mate have found that my motor is running on 5 cylinders. We changed spark plugs and leads and it made no differance. Could it be a burnt valve? Other than the valve i dont know what else besides the coil pack that could make it drop a cylinder. If a coil pack goes does usually only one go or do they go in pair or whatever?
I cleaned my throttle body out today but havent started the car yet so i dont know if it has made a differance but god damn it was dirty! the car who had this car before me must have been a real drop kick.
And one more thing when the o2 sensor goes doesnt that kick in an open or closed loop or something?
Cheers |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 6:11:54 PM
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just a thought mab the fuel pump relief valve is shot if that's the case its a new pump but this is just a thought, sounds strange 2 me I'll think more about this 1...
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trizo
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3091 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 6:14:00 PM
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the o2 sensor sounds about right 2 give it a look..
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 6:17:54 PM
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Could be a dead injector that's causing that cylinder to die. Have you tested for a spark? The problem might not be with the spark, it might be with the fuel delivery. A burnt valve will show up in a compression test on the cylinder. Something that's well worth doing. All of the cylinders should be at LEAST 689kPa (6.89 Bar, 100psi). As a rough guide they should all be about the same value, if one is way above or below the others then I'd start looking at valves and/or rings.
If a coil dies they do normally drop two cylinders, but automotive electronics do strange things. ;)
I'm not sure if it's goes closed or open, but either way I know it doesn't work as it should...it makes the car run WAY rich, so whichever way that is, is the way it goes. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 6:38:02 PM
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| how many kms has this motor done? |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 7:06:33 PM
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OK yes it had spark, even tested differant plugs and leads and all was fine in that compartment. I have no idea at the condition of my injectors and i have never run cleaner or anything through them so dead one is definatly possible. My dash says my motor has done 218,000 but that can be changed so who knows. My mate is bringing me his compression testing unit that screws into the plug hole and you run a air compressor through and see if any air comes out exhuast or the throttle body. im not sure if it tells me the kPa but i have many places i can get it tested for nothing so ive got more options.
If it comes down to replacing valves what would be involved in doing that and do you have any idea about the cost of it? Would someone with a decent tool kit and moderate knowledge of an engine be able to do it?
Cheers |
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trizo
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3091 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 10:13:33 PM
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| ok here we go this gets a bit bit tricky but we will c wat we can do ?!?!?alright i have no idea how much this will cost but at the shop it surley would'nt be pretty so its always good 2 give things a crack ur self!u may not have 2 replace the valves as such but u may have 2 reface them or your valve seats anyways if this is the case u will haf 2 grind the valve seats to 45degreesthen measure the seat width to see fit it may be advised unless your a full gun with your vn and have the right tools to do this take it to someone who can show u first hand ,like i said this is tricky and hard 2 explain but the compression test is a must let me know after the test |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 10:23:32 PM
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So this grinding is this done on a lathe or anything? Refacing them with a lathe would be easy for me and 45 degree's and all that would be easy as i have a bit of experience on lathes.
Cheers |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 10:36:11 PM
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| also refacing the ports to remove any small pits or scaring like i said take care doing this its not easy ps sorry it didnt make a lot of sense! |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 01:34:01 AM
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Yeah well i think if i do the valves i might just replace them because then i know they will be fine. I dont want to have to worry about them.
I think i have also dicovered another problem with my car...there is crap building up on my radiotor cap and around the edges and from what i know that indicates blown head gasket, am i right or is this complete crap?
Cheers |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 01:45:11 AM
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here are sum reasons 4 the water u can c
1.cylinder head gasket gone
2.bolts 2 tight on cylinder head
3.crakd or warperhead or blck
4.crakd intake manifold
look at all ur dipstiks to c if any coolant is mixv with the oil this may help>...
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 10:13:28 AM
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If the oil has become a bit of a creamy mess, instead of being a nice smooth honey/black colour, then yeah...I'd say that you've got a bigger problem than one missing cylinder.
If the head gasket has gone, then you should use that opportunity to get a whole lot of other things done as well...get the engine out of the car and...:
Rear main seal,
Consider a rebuild if you can afford it,
New injectors,
and anything else that you can possibly think of.
Either that or shop around, you can find the VN V6 Buick motors for anywhere between $500 and $1500 depending on how recenly they were rebuilt. Hell...you can find a whole VN for about $1000 most times. So depending on what it's going to cost, it may end up being cheaper to just buy another VN and swap the motor over.
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Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 12:30:28 PM
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| ok ok this is a bit xtreme but mouse is right a rebuild would b fun and lookin at more vn's sounds like a good day2 but yeah if u haf 2 do a gasket then u might as well take the time to go right over it, who no's how long it has been runnin on 5 cyls but this would of put a lot of stress on the other components the motor is workin harder 2 replace the missing cyl let me no wat happens!1! |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 7:12:49 PM
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I checked my oil and all seem's fine(its a bit black but its almost due for a service) but hey motors can do wierd things haha. A rebuild i would love to do as i dont know the condition of my engine but being at school leaves funds a little short right now. Is it difficult to open the engine up myself to look and pistons and valves without taking it out of the car? I have a bit of knowledge of engines myself and if i need it plenty of mates who know all about this kind of stuff so whats your opinion of me doing this?
Cheers |
Boost me, and double clutch me so i can get my. Loss of Traction! |
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trizo
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3091 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 7:55:05 PM
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| If u feel confident in your self wich to me it sounds like u are go 4 it as for funds 1 step at a time at least this way u will get 2 know your car a bit better I say go 4 it brother yeha....p.s wen u drop your oil look 4 any steel grind in the pan!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 10:56:35 PM
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If you start pulling heads of the motor just to 'look' at the pistons, you've got to replace so many seals and gaskets anyway, you might as well do a rebuild. Not only that, but as far as I know the engine has to come out for you to get the heads off properly. It's not worth doing just for a look.
Unless you've got a nice engine crane/stand, and about two weeks where you don't need the car (not to mention all the gaskets and bolts that you'll need to get it back together), then it MIGHT be worth it. Personally, I don't plan on opening my engine until it's time for a rebuild...too many things to go wrong. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 11:30:56 PM
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| either way it sounds as if the motor needs sum serious work so watever you decide to do post it back so we can see wat the outcum is!!!! |
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johnny cade
On a small holiday
338 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 12:03:23 AM
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| dont rule out the whole fuel theif idea. Ive caught 8 people stealing fuel from my work car park, and sent 5 of them to hospital. Stupid theives, they can eat my ****! yeah, but get urself a locked fuel cap, that worked for me |
He sees an old man and says “See we’ll part with your hard,
Earned cash or rest in peace we can start with your heart.
Some girl steps not afraid she’s gonna cop it sweet,
And gets decked before she made it even on her feet,
The old man leaped to her aid and to his horror he’d,
Thrusted his chest into the blade of his robber s piece,
He grabbed the wallet, dropped the knife as he fled the car,
Concerned about the loss of life he’d never went this far,
What’s done is done, he’d got the prize and he’d spent his half,
Of two dollars in change and a pension card. |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 12:37:17 AM
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OK well im gonna rule out the taking off of heads and crap because with school i have no time or money. If someone is taking my fuel it would be done at school so it would be easy to catch them but there is no evidence of someone forcefully opening my fuel cap so im not sure. Ill investigate.
Im gonna replace fuel filter or at least test the flow of it just to be sure its not that.
If one of the injectors has died that will stop a cylinder going wont it? How can i find out if one has died? And if i have to replace them would you suggest the same stock injectors or go for some performnce injectors, is the power gain worth it?
And im still waiting to test the valves so ill let you know how that goes.
Cheers guys you are all ledgends! |
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trizo
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3091 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 8:34:29 PM
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yeha catch the thivesas as 4 the lockup cap these dont work like they say if they want it, they will take it.hey joogie your a perth boy hey! if its injectors wich in all reality it doesnt sound like it! i have a spare lot here that if u need these will help u and if u genuine proberly wont cost u anything but a 6 pack of beer so i can rip the little suckers out>. since you haf ruled aout a motor strip or chekin the heads its a bit hard 2 help mate, but like i said if it injectors that u need I could probaly help u out............
Trizo |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 9:18:18 PM
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OK first of all thanks for all this helps guys you have saved me heaps.
I did a compression check and all is fine there, all were around 7 bar so i think they are fine.
I have cleaned out my idle air control valve and that was extremely dirty and upon reinstalling this and after resseting computer the my car sounded heaps better but it still is stalling a bit so i am looking towards the injectors. I will run some injector cleaner through them first and see if that makes a diferance and if not then they are getting replaced.
@ trizo, yes i am in WA but im in Margaret River about 4 hours south of perth... Injectors would be awesome but ill do some other tests first before i commit to anything. But i dont think i could take the injectors off you mate i know they are quiet expensive and if i look at getting some new ones i might get some really good ones just because i can ;) hehehe Thanks for the offer anyway
@ any one else if i was going to replace injectors do i need the exact ones that are in there now or can i upgrade them or something? If i was to upgrade them am i looking at a power gain? coz that would be awesome..lol and how much would they increase fuel usgae?
Cheers again |
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trizo
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3091 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 9:31:56 PM
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| hey mate no worrys just athought, thats good news that ur head test came up cool and 1nc again this has me fu@#$% but then again the state im [not w.a] smashed hehehee!!! it dont take much. I no this is off the subject but wats the surf like ther its blowin its ring gear out here?? 7.8.06 hey and theres sumthing that I dont know,that u could help me with?how do u reset ur comp safley? |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 9:41:06 PM
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| I do it by taking out my engine fuse, waiting like 2 minutes putting it back in and then starting and reving engine to 300rpm for 30 secs, thats what i have been told and how i do it and it seems to work. Engine then usually idles lower after than and way smoother. |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 9:48:04 PM
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| hey that simple cheers joogie and the surf?lol |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 10:48:58 PM
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| Haha the surf i wouldnt have a clue its way to windy and cold here atm to even think about going down for a bodyboard...plus last 2 times i have been boardin ive had to get out of the water due to sharks.....so yeah lol |
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trizo
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 11:32:47 PM
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| nah I dont surf neither just bein funny heheheh just full storms !!!!! |
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Joogie
Fully Licenced
291 Posts
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Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 11:52:30 PM
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Im so keen to get my vn going coz atm im stuck driving toyota coroola around and it just dont cut it.
Cut quickly where do i locate the o2 sensor? its on the passengers side manifold but where exactly?
cheers |
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