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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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 Posted - 25 May 2006 : 9:35:12 PM
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gday all. i own a vn commodore with a standard v6 3.8l buick. im only new to playin with engines. i am looking at installing a twin turbo. wat other modifications would i need to do to prepare the engine for a twin turbo.
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 26 May 2006 : 10:51:19 AM
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If you wanna do it the cheap and nasty way, all you'd need to do is get the custom exhaust manifolds made up, and drop an intercooler in it. Keep in mind that by doing that you're really not going to be doing your engine any favours.
If I were to go down the TT path with mine, I'd get the custom manifolds made up (so that one turbo can sit on each side of the engine), get a nice big intercooler, a K&N panel filter, a cold air intake, and a good quality SILENT plumbback BOV. Then for the engine itself...I'd look at higher ratio roller rockers, a port and polish of the heads, maybe a different cam (but probably not with the higher ratio rockers), maybe a double row timing chain if I felt like it, twin throttle body setup (one turbo into each one) and completely rework the fuel system. That said it's very dependent on how many k's your engine has on it, you might find that it won't last too long before it's out for a total rebuild anyway.
I would say that a dyno tune and a custom engine management chip would be a must, as well as a full exhaust upgrade. If it's a manual, you may find that you need a better clutch, if it's an auto, make sure that it's at least got a stage 2 shift kit.
Have you got any specific turbos in mind (e.g. will you run two the same size, or would you run one smaller one and one larger one?), and what boost pressure are you looking at running?
Let us know a bit more about your car and there may be other things to recommend. If you've got an open diff, I'd strongly recommend thinking about an LSD. I'd also think about insurance before you get this done. Get a few quotes, one company that may offer insurance would be JustCar Insurance. It's not going to be cheap. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 26 May 2006 : 10:39:30 PM
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cheers for da reply. well the engines done 260,000 kms but im thinkin bout buyin an engine outa da paper and building on dat. save havin my car outa service 4 a while. its got a five speed manual and a 3 inch exhaust. i brought the car bout a year ago but havent yet improved on the engine.
i dont no much bout turbos. wat would b the difference if u run one bigger n one smaller or the same size.
wat would adding a turbo do to the fuel consumption? and wat would the roundabout costs be for these upgrades. |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2006 : 12:28:36 AM
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This is gunna be fairly long, get a coffee and come back...
Well...it sounds like you've got the right idea about getting a second engine to build up, but since you're more or less going to be doing a full rebuild on it anyway, don't bother getting one from a paper, just go to a wreckers yard and pick one up there. I've heard that the buick V6 (which is what we have) can go for as little as $200. That said, you do need to do your homework to know what you're getting. I'm going to start from the very beginning here. There were actually two different V6 motors used in the VN commodores, the Series 1 and the Seris 2 (unofficially there was a two month transtional period where there was a series 1.5 but I won't bother with that now).
The series 1 motor was used in production vehicles from their release (officially September of 88) through to about the end of 89. It was quite clear to Holden that something needed to be done to slightly 'refine' the motor. The official reason being that idle was too rough and that a few improvments could be made to deliver a little more power (2kW to be exact), they also changed the water jackets inside the block/head as well. The unofficial reason was that the motor was so responsive that the V6 executive commodores were able to beat the VN SS commodores to street legal speeds because it was lighter in weight, and actually reaches 85% of it's torque at only 2000rpm, which makes for a SERIOUSLY fast car. This also presented holden with several customers complaining that they were having problems in the wet because the power came on too soon for most people (keep in mind that back them most people driving them were family people and grandparents) and old people were looping them in church carparks.
So holden made their changes, and idle became a little smoother (not enough to worry about), and the power became a little more user friendly. The peak power was pushed higher in the rev range, and the torque curve was moved up a little too, which (despite being 2kW better off that the S1 engine) actually made the car marginally slower. HOWEVER, there were some worthwhile improvments made, the S1 engine was notorious for having the rear main seal let go, which essentially meant that you had to take the gearbox and sump off to replace it, and it was ROPE!!! Holden changed to a rubber seal in the S2 which is much better lasting.
All small changes aside, for the project you're going to undertake, I would recommend the Series 1 motor, because it allows you to build it up from more of a base level. There are a few ways to tell the S1 from the S2, the easiest being the fuel rails. If the fuel rails are round and black then it's a S1 engine, if they are rather large and silver/grey metal then you're looking at a S2 motor. Just to make sure the drivers side radiator hose runs to the BACK of the engine on the S1, whereas on the S2 it runs to the front of the engine. I know that this seems a little strange, but it's important to know what motor you're working on when it comes to ordering parts (and I thought the history might have been interesting).
As I said, my pick would be the S1 motor, however if you can get a S2 motor cheaper, they weren't bad either.
Now...the turbo question...
Because of the way a turbo works (driving the compressor turbine from exhaust gasses) it takes a while for the turbo to actually kick in and start producing boost (spool up) the amount of time it takes to spool up is called turbo lag. Generally speaking the bigger the turbo the bigger the turbo lag, as it's got to drive a larger compressor it needs more exhaust gas to get it going. So if you were going to fit two equal turbos then you'll have quite a large torque hole while they spool, then all of a sudden you'll have both turbos spinning and forcing air into your engine. Now for a track this would be okay, because your revs would never drop below that which is required for the turbos to spool, therefore you wouldn't have to worry about turbo lag, this also stands true for drags.
The advantage to fitting a small turbo and a large turbo is that the small one will spool much quicker than the large on, so turbo lag will not be as great. Boost comes on much earlier in the rev range (some will spool from as low as 1500 rpm) this then prevents the large torque curve that would have been present with two large turbos. This makes the car much nicer to drive around the streets, because the torque curve is much smoother rather than being quite low then jumping all of a sudden when the large turbos kick in. Having the small turbo spool at about 1500-1800rpm and the larger one spool from about 3000-3500rpm would make for quite a nice street car. Keep in mind that the rev limiter in the Buick V6 is at 5600rpm, so having a turbo spool at 4500 or higher is more or less pointless.
Another advantage of having mismatched turbos is that you can (provided you find someone who really knows what they are doing) tune them much more finely, to give the best possible torque curve.
Something else to keep in mind, depending on what boost pressure you want to run, is you may find you need to lower the compression of the engine slightly.
Going down the forced induction path is going to increase your fuel usage. The more air you ram into a cylinder, the more fuel you need to inject to keep the ratio the same, simple as that. And, having the extra power come on with the second turbo, you're going to drive higher in the rev range, just because you can :) You'll thrash it a bit more just because the power is there, so yeah...you'll use more fuel. Again...if you change the cam, you'll use more fuel again.
As for the total cost...this is the nasty part. To do a full twin turbo setup on a VN V6 motor PROFESSIONALLY...well...I can't give you an exact figure, but assuming that you don't do any of it yourself, I think it's safe to say that you'd be looking at more than $10,000. Including the rebuild...more again. It's not a cheap thing to do, but the results can be very spectacular. That said, you need to ask yourself...is it really worth doing that much to it?
If I were to go for forced induction, I'd get myself a nice Vortech Supercharger. Boost happens from idle (ie. no turbo lag), I wouldn't need to fork out for expensive exhaust manifolds and it's much easier to setup. Unless you have a very specific reason for wanting the novelty of a TT setup on your VN, I'd seriously consider looking at supercharging the engine before you make up your mind.
On that note...I'm going to bed. Hope that you found the above useful. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2006 : 5:08:08 PM
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gday.
thanks for dat it was very interesting. the reason i wanna build on the vn i got is cause its a manual, the body is in good nick and it has an electric sunroof. from what u told me its got a s1 engine in it. i havnt really thought bout slapin a supercharger on it. so a supercharger would have greater pick up but less top speed??? how does the supercharger work??? much the same principles as a turbo??? and also one thing on my car that has every1 stuffed is that it has two radiator overflow tanks... is this for a reason or am i able to remove 1... |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2006 : 6:14:07 PM
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The compressor in the turbo is driven from the exhaust gasses, and requires custom exhaust manifolds and a whole lot of stuffing around to fit it in. The compressor in the supercharger is driven from the engine drive belt (the same one which runs the alternator, waterpump, air conditioner, oil pump...), all you need to do for that is get a longer drive belt, and attach it to the inlet plenum.
Properly setup, the supercharger can actually give better results than a turbo, because there is zero lag, and can run all the way to redline as well. So it will pull all the way, requiring NO time to spool. They can also run the same boost pressure that a turbo could. If you want you can get a s/c to run as low as 3psi boost, or you can get them to run 32psi boost. Of course the higher the boost the more work you need to do to the engine.
The biggest advantage to a supercharger is that there is zero lag. The biggest advantage to a turbo (compared to a s/c) is ... I can't actually think of one. The Buick V6 actually lends itself very nicely to a superchharger. Just because of the characteristics of the engine.
The coolant tanks...looks like you have a VN that was made between April 1990 and November 1990. Congratulations my friend, if those two bottles are original factory equipment you've got yourself a Series 1.5. I would recommend getting your hands on a Gregory's manual if you want to see what the small differences are between the S1 and your motor. The two coolant bottles are hooked up properly, then there should be a hose running out of the pressure cap on the resevoir on the drivers side, across the front of the engine bay and into the lid of the bottle on the other side. I can see no reason why you can't remove the one on the passengers side of the car, however if you do try it, keep a VERY close eye on the water level until you are certain that it's not dropping. The idea of the second bottle was to catch any coolant that spilled if the pressure gets too high. That said, I would keep both in there, just because it's a S1.5 engine, might as well keep it, especially if you're going to go for a blown setup, the cooling system needs to be in top condition to make it work properly. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2006 : 6:48:19 PM
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well there you go. yeah thats the way they are set up. the problem i got is that the 1st tank wont hold any coolant for a long period. i am continuosly filling it up twice a week. i figured the cap was gone but i have been unable to find a replacement cap for it. does it effect the engine if you put water in the tanks instead of proper fluid??? it gets a bit expensive at times....
well im glad you brought up the supercharger. it sounds alot better in all aspects. so does the boost pressure effect the power?? what work would you need to do to the engine for a s/c.
also wat gearbox would be the bet to handle the power it would supply??? would the standard t5 be able to handle it?? i want to stay with a manual. cause the one i got now is on its way out and i dont wanna purchase one that falls apart once i begin upgrading.
would you recomend building on the s1.5 or look for a s1 or s2??? |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 27 May 2006 : 11:36:24 PM
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Dear god in heaven, use the proper fluid! Straight water will start to corrode the waterjackets inside the block, this in turn dislodges and can block the radiator/water jackets, when this happens, your water pump can't pump the water, your engine over heats and POP!!
Now that I've scared you with that, don't be too worried if you've topped it up with straight water a few times, it won't kill it over night, but I'd strongly recommend using the correct mixture of coolant and water from now on. It might be a little expensive, but it's cheaper than forking out for a new engine.
The problem of the tanks holding the fluid or not depends on which one you call the first tank. If the tank on the passengers side is the first tank (and it can't hold water), then I wouldn't be too worried. If the water is going missing from the tank on the drivers side, I'd start trying to find where it is going and FAST. To be filling it up twice a week suggests a SERIOUS water leak. Do me a favour and check your oil, if it's black then you're all good, if it's got a bit of a creamy milky texture to it then you're up for a new head gasket (at the very least). Check the condition of all your hoses too. You shouldn't be going through that much water. I think in the entire time I've had my car (more than 3 years now) I've had to add less than 1Ltr to it in total. It may also just be something to do with the second coolant bottle, but I can't see how.
Keep in mind that the bottle should never be FULL, it should only be filled to the line which says COLD. If you can't see the line then the seam between the top and bottom half of the tank is a good level to have it at.
The boost pressure is the pressure of the air that you are forcing into the engine. A naturally aspirated engine sucks the air in on its own, and creates a slight vacuum thus drawing more air in. You open the throttle more and it allows more air to be sucked in, the more air that's in there the bigger the bang in the cylinder and the more power you get. When you start forcing more air in to the engine than it would normally draw in (such as you'd do with a turbo or a supercharger) instead of the engine sucking the air in, the charger (turbo or super) actually FORCES the air into the cylinder, resulting in more air being in the cylinder than would otherwise be there, resulting in an even bigger bang, and therefore more power. Now if you run a low boost pressure of 6psi, then you're going to get a good increase in power, because you're pumping much more air in. But if you run an even higher boost pressure say 12psi or 15psi then you're looking at a LOT more air, which means a MUCH BIGGER BANG! Which gives you MUCH MORE POWER.
The higher the boost, the more air that goes in, the bigger the bang, the bigger the power. Keep in mind though that while it's quite easy to engineer an engine to handle 6psi or 11psi of boost, it takes a lot more effort to engineer it so that it can cope with 15 or 20psi of boost. Also, the higher the boost figure the higher the fuel usage, the more air you pump in the more fuel you need to pump in.
The amount of work you'd need to do to the engine depends on what boost pressure you're looking to run, a healthy stock standard VN or VP engine with a good exhaust and cooling system can (usually) run quite happily with 6-9 pounds of boost. That's assuming that it's had a rebuild recently. Even that level of boost pressure can yield some surprising increases in power output. Any more than 6-9 pounds then you're going to need to look at strengthening a few things up and it's probably best to speak to a forced induction specialist about that.
One thing that I can't recommend highly enough is to get a good intercooler, simple high-school physics tells you that when you compress a gas (in this case AIR) you heat it up, when you heat air up it expands and becomes slightly less dense. That's not too much of a problem normally, but in an engine you want the air coming in to be as cold as possible. Why? Simple, the more dense the air going in the greater the concentration of oxygen that is present in the cylinder at the time of the explosion. The more oxygen the bigger the bang. So if you compress it and cool it then you're giving your engine the best air you can. With where you live the ambient air temperatures can get rather high, so a good air-to-air intercooler is a must.
The gearbox question is a tough one, and it depends on what sort of driving you want to do. If it's going to be a drag car then a fully manualised automatic with a ratchet shifter is the only way to go. If you're doing it up as a street car then the standard T5 box should be able to handle most things, BUT...it depends on what power output you want from your engine. You can throw low boost at your car and you'd end up with 120-150rwkw and the T5 box should be fine. But if you go nuts and run high boost with a fully worked engine trying to get 250rwkw to the ground, you're going to end up stripping the inside of the T5 before you get to the end of your drive way.
Before you go any further with this project you need to think about a few things:
1) What sort of driving will I be doing?
2) What sort of power output do I want at the rear wheels (stock is usually about 85-90rwkw for a VN V6)?
3) Do I want to supercharge or turbocharge?
4) What diff do I want to have (open, LSD, higher ratio maybe)?
The other mods you'll need to consider would be suspension (even FE2 suspension could be much better, and if you've got a stock VN then you don't even have FE2), if you plan on getting that power to the ground you'll want better handling and response from your suspension, lower and stiffer is the way to go. Whiteline make a good kit that's got everything you need, check out their website.
Brakes: if you're going to go fast, and have all that power to go fast with, you'll need something equally as special to pull your car up with. Stock VN brakes are good for a stock VN, and more than that and they just don't cut it. It's possible to put the VT brakes onto a VN (it's a common upgrade), but if you want to do that you'll need...
Wheels/tyres: bigger ones. The smallest that you can have with the VT brakes is 15" (as far as I know, but don't quote me on it). I know that they can't be fitted with the stock 14" rims, there isn't enough clearance. But this is a good thing...you'll be wanting wider tyres trying to get that power to the ground, something probably around a 225 tyre. If you want to keep your car looking like a sleeper then 15" interceptor rims are cheap as **** and you can fit 225 tyres to those nicely. If you don't want the sleeper look and have the money for alloys then go nuts...17" doesn't look too bad. But whatever you do don't skimp on the rubber. Good suspension and brakes and all that power are useless if you're skidding around on the cheapest tyres that you could find. My preference for performance rubber is Yokohama, sure they cost a bit more than the cheap stuff, but they're a damn good tyre manufacturer.
For the project you've got in mind, I'd actually buy a second VN, straight up. Even if it's been in a massive rear end smash and it's a writeoff, you should be able to pick it up cheap as mud, and use that for the engine, and any other parts that you may need. I've heard of people picking up complete cars (write offs though) for $300. Series 1 or Series 2 doesn't really matter that much, you can find parts just about everywhere for them. Personally I wouldn't build on the engine you've got (probably high k's on it, with what sounds like a massive waterleak to it, and most likely a few other problems that would come up if you tried forcing more air into it). I'd get a donor car, yank the engine from that, and have that to work on, then when it's up and running the way you want, do an engine swap with your road car, and that way you don't have your car off the road for any more than one day. It also gives you a nice source of income, once you're done with it, start selling bits from the donor car (seats, dash, instrument cluster...ANYTHING), it's all worth something.
Who would have thought that your one line question (top of page) would have lead to such a long thread? |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
Edited by - mouce on 27 May 2006 11:37:02 PM |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 31 May 2006 : 01:01:29 AM
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dats alrite then... i top it up sumtimes but mainly use proper fluid.
the drivers side tank wont hold water. whilst the second tank doesnt seem to rise or fall. i tried running the engine and lookin for a leek but cant find one. but the cap on the drivers side tank has a suction noise cumin out of it. i checked the oil and it seems to be fine.
i would mainly be doing street driving but with sum power under the hood i probly couldnt contain myself for long. and from all u have told me im leaning towards a s/c now.
if i build the engine i would probly go for near max power. no use doin things half hearted i say. and id end up putin an lsd in just for extra comfort. 
yeah i was thinkin bout gettin a donor car. just makes it easier to work on and i can take more time on it...
also on the motor atm it has a slight clicking noise when its idling. it seems to be coming from the top of the motor. what could this be????? |
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jabba
P Plater
16 Posts
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Posted - 31 May 2006 : 11:03:59 AM
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| The other trick with superchargers is that you can get them with an electric clutch on the drive (like aircon), which means that while you are just tootling about, you can turn the supercharger off, and when required - press a button and presto - instant welly. |
Keep the shiny side up and the greasy side down. |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 31 May 2006 : 11:41:18 AM
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The ticking would most likely be noisy injectors, could also be noisy tappets. I wouldn't be getting too worried about it at the moment, mine has been making the same noise now for three years, hasn't gotten any worse, so I'm not too stressed. When the engine blows up I'll use that as an excuse to slightly work the engine during the rebuild :)
How do you define max power for an engine that you're building? Given enough dollars and enough time it's possible to get almost an power output you want. There are guys over in the states who have traveled down the hallowed forced induction path and have managed to get somewhere around 1100bhp out of the Buick V6. That's somewhere around 800kw to you and me. That said, they are running 32pound boost pressure, no exhausts and rebuild their engine at the end of each month. The more power you try to squeeze out of an engine the shorter its life will be. The ideal power is a mixture of lifespan and power output. 150rwkw will give you a nice kick in the pants and will still keep your engine happy for quite a while, 200rwkw will really move you along, and there are VN's with that much power that are running around town quite comfortably (unless it's wet! LOL). Now without putting in some seriously large dollars, and budgeting for a rebuild a little sooner than would be normal I think that 200rwkw will make you happy enough for now. Keep in mind that a stock VN will usually have somewhere between 85-90rwkw depending on the condition of the motor. So you're looking at more than double what you've got now.
Also Jabba has a point, it's possible to put an electronic clutch on them so that you can turn them on and off at will. I'm not a fan of this method, because to get the best out of it (and it sounds like that's what you're after) you'd need to be running different engine managment chips. One for when the s/c is running one for when it's not. Now while it can be done, and it's not all that hard to do it if you know the right people and which end of a soldering iron to hang onto, it's more stuffing around than you'd really want.
By the sounds of it you're looking to run at max power all the time, so a clutch setup sounds like something you don't need. I could be wrong, but I just see it as something more that can wear out. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 31 May 2006 : 12:13:24 PM
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yeah the ticking hasnt got worse so i not getin to worried. just wonderin what it would be.
yeah they seem to always go one step bigger in the states. once u have a s/c installed can u change the boost pressure or would u have to purchase a whole new 1???? and at what point would u have to strengthen the internal engine components??
the electronic clutch would come in handy in the wet. but if i got some power under the hood i mite aswell use it... |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 31 May 2006 : 11:30:18 PM
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With a s/c setup you can change the boost pressure to a certain degree. I think with some of the Vortech chargers you can swap the pully that the drive belt runs over. If you want more boost you put on a smaller pully, the idea being that the smaller pully will cause the charger to spin faster, which creates more boost. You want less boost, put a bigger pully on, the larger pully causes it to spin slower, which creates less boost.
I've heard of people running 6pounds into their stock engines, I don't know how long they did it for, but I've heard of it being done. I have heard of someone running 15 pound into a stock engine...actually I heard someone do it...the engine lasted less than a drive around the block.
I wouldn't recommend this kit but it's worth reading http://www.rodshop.com.au/superchargerholdv6.htm
The charger used is off a little ****ty 2L toyota, so I'm a little sceptical about how long it's going to last running on an engine almost twice that size. Still they claim that 3pounds is enough to get a 25-30% increase in power/torque, so that's promising.
If you're going to do it, I wouldn't use the CRS kit, but that's just personal opinion, I think you'd be much better off with a slightly more expensive unit (if you plan on going nuts with it, might as well do it properly). Here's a few links to explore:
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/products/units/
http://www.capa.com.au/main.htm
CAPA have just about any kind of s/c that you could every dream of, vortech have a whole lot of nice pretty pictures, CAPA have all the different brands and a few pictures. Most of all though, CAPA have prices. Hope your wallet isn't afraid. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 12:22:55 AM
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thanks for them sites. they are very interesting. yeah i thought u mite b able to change the pulley size. im workin on getin my donor car atm. should have 1 by next week hopefully. then i can pull the motor out and begin work on it. i am thinkin of buildin it up to run at round the high 20psi. but it all depends on how i feel at the time.  |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 10:19:33 PM
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Damn 20 pounds, that's going to be a pretty potent little engine by the time you're done with it. Thought about stroking it? Maybe take it out to 4ltrs or so? I mean by the sounds of it this is a long term project and you're willing to throw big dollars at it, so it might be nice to increase the capacity a little.
Light weight pistons and full engine balance, see if you can make it rev a little more freely...get redline moved a little higher perhaps...bloody hell...you've got me thinking now. You'll have to post up pictures of it as you go, I wanna see this. Please :) |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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mike_oxlong
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 10:34:22 PM
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| nah i havnt thought bout that yet... but that would most likely be on the agenda. yeah it guna be a long term project. give me sumtin to do in my spare time. lol. ill b takin many pictures as i go. with all the info i got from this forum it guna make it alot easier for me to work out how i gunna run it. |
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