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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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 Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 6:03:54 PM
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hi all
i had a problem with the heater control which turned out to be trivial tube issue, but upon putting everything in the dash back, i accidenty shorted two wires from the cluster
[URL=http://imageshack.us] [/URL]
but i had them resolded, but now the dash cluster lights won't light up (ie, hand brake, etc) only the PRESS REMOTE and low oil light up
plus every minute the hand brake warning beep comes on
plus fuel gauge doesn't move
car revs to 1000 instead of 750 as before
bad fuel smell
i'm thinking maybe the dash cluster is fuked? but the two wires were resolded
perhaps the ecu is disconnected somehow?
[URL=http://imageshack.us] [/URL]
please help guys!
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 9:18:13 PM
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Is the cluster a Calais cluster (does it have a little LCD readout on it)? Or is it a L2 cluster (tacho, speedo and fuel/temp) or a L1 cluster (Temp, speed, fuel)?
If it's L2 or L1 then there's a chance that you've cooked the voltage regulator on the back of the cluster.
Something that might be worth trying is going to the local wreckers and picking up a second cluster to try. Might also be a nice chance to upgrade to L2 cluster.
When you disconnected everything, I'm guessing you pulled the battery off. Did you reset the ecu when you plugged everything back in?
Also...while you're at the wreckers...get a vac ball. It would be nice to know what happened to your old one. Every VN has got one.
Just for future reference, VN commodores are 15-18 year old cars...if something goes wrong, while it is possible to pull everything apart in your garage at home, it's usually easier to start with the simple things first. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 7:44:33 PM
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thanks mouce, kinda been waiting for your reply :D
it's L3, and i went to get a replacment cluster
but this new one doesn't beep (handbrake, overspeed), cruise control doesn't work and mostly, the lights don't light up except indicators and REMOTE
i'm waiting for a new cluster to come in and then i'll see
otherwise, it's gotta be a wiring loom issue
i'm hoping it's the dash, not the loom
kinda scared about the whole thing coz i can't drive it anywhere to get checked out
for now, i've pinched the VAC tube, and it's working for now. would like to know where the vac is too, maybe it fell off?
and yeh, i shouldn't have doubted the VN. these things are VERY sturdy and reliable, and if things go wrong, it's ALWAYS SoMEOTHING SIMPLE!
mouce, do you knwo a good auto electrican who knows his way around cailas in melb SE? |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 8:04:16 PM
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I've been keeping tabs on your progress on the j/c forum too. So I know what you've been up to.
And as has been mentioned on there, since you managed to cook something like you have, it might be worth checking the rest of the loom for problems, so the auto elec is a good spot to start (unless you feel like getting really intimate with your car and a multimeter). Sorry, but I can't actually help you with any down that way, I know a few in the north of the state, but that doesn't help you none.
The Vac ball can come loose, one of my mates had a VN wagon and it kept coming off, bloody noisy when it starts to wobble around though. Once you fix that up you should notice that your idle settles down heaps too. It's important to have th vac ball in place to act as a pressure buffer.
Since you've got the L3 cluster in there and it's playing up, it might be worth getting another ecu (from a mate or a wreckers) to test out. Swap with the ecu that's in there at the moment and see if that fixes anything. You may have BBQ'd the computer, but I can't see how/why.
Let's face it though, as your first foray into the depths of DIY on a VN, this has been a massive effort. Hopefully the next 'problem' doesn't blow out as much. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 9:00:51 PM
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thanks for all the help mouce
noticed a 'mouce' on jc too, wasn't sure if it was the same person tho :D
well, i'll see how the new cluster goes
REALLY hopeing that'll fix it all
otherwise, i'll try an electrican. i can't imagine how the ECU could be messed up, unless i reinstalled it wrong when putting the dash back in
the ecu is a flat black plastic box in the passenger side, right?
p.s there won't be a 'next time' i'll pay for someone to fix my issues in future :D |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 12:32:14 PM
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For all that this has been a bit of a nightmare, don't let it put you off future DIY jobs. Ripping out the dash is a huge job, and you really did jump in at the deep end. With all the help that's available on forums there's no reason to not do all your repairs yourself. Everyone has a nightmare with their VN every now and then, you just happened to get it first up. Don't let it put you off, they really are fairly easy cars to work on.
I can't see why the ECU (yes it is the little box on the left of the passengers foot well) would be messed up either. But it depends on which wires you cooked. Being a calais cluster, they have a few wires which run directly back to the ECU, if these fried, then there's a chance that you sucked massive amounts of current through the ECU, which would have been a bad thing.
Just a hint: get down to repco, autobarn or Kmart even and get yourself a Gregory's service manual for a VN. Trust me...you'll appreciate the car in a whole new way. Mine has become something of a bible, it's never too far from me. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 5:02:52 PM
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thanks for hte kind words mouce
well, the new cluster came in today, was tested before it came but when i put it in (after praying)
it made beeping noises like with my first one and ligths still didn't come up
so its gotta be either
1. loom
2. ecu
i'll rip out the dash again tomorrow and see how the wires go
is there any thing that i should be looking out for? like black burnt wires or maybe frayed circuits or anything as such?
how will i know which is in need?
thanks !
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 6:29:02 PM
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Don't go doing anything crazy like ripping out the dash just yet. Get another ecu from a VN, from a wreckers, not from a mate (just incase you fry that one), and swap that over to see if it makes any difference. Start with the simple things...and ECU swap is a hell of a lot easier than pulling the dash out again.
If it isn't the ecu, then yeah...it's time to get into the deep mysterious world of the electronics in a VN. It's one of those things where you might be able to find a nice burned out wire, but then again you might find nothing. Chance the ecu, check all the connectors on the back of the cluster (and the ones in the dash), see if there are any obviously fried wires...and we'll go from there.
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Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 10:49:26 PM
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okay then, i'll take your advise
is there anything specific i need to get? are all VN the same, or did calias have different evus? and were they different based on years?
anything else i need to know, like memcal?
also what do you think it will cost?
also, to get to the ECU, i'll need to remove the dash anyway, becuase it's hidden behind the glove box compartment.
truth is, the ecu (black plastic box) got thrown around a bit because of it's location close to the fan heater, could that be an issue?
thanks !
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 10:12:17 AM
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No...the ecu is located on the left hand side of the passengers foot well. Pop the glove box lid out and take off the side air vent, and it's down near the floor. It shouldn't be a black plastic box, it should be a black plastic cover over a silver box.
Did you go and get the Gregory's manual? You really should you know.
So long as the replacement ECU comes from a VN V6 then you shouldn't have a problem. And as for the memcal side of things, if worst comes to worst you can always put your old one in there.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO REMOVE THE DASH |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
Edited by - mouce on 21 Jul 2006 10:12:43 AM |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 7:50:17 PM
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really?
then what the hell is the black plastic box? you know,its like the memory module thingo on the drivers side, next to the fuse box
theres one behind the glove box, which gets in the way of the fan heater
isn't that the ecu? |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 9:27:57 PM
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Memory module on the drivers side? What the...?
I'll say it again...get a Gregory's manual. They even have pretty pictures of all the parts in there.
Maybe there's something in the calais that I don't know about, but there's nothing I can think of in the poverty pack that is like that...not from the factory anyway. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 10:01:28 PM
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hmmmm
i do have a gregory's
title
COMMODORE LEXCEN v6
covers models 1991-1993 VP VQ series
i know it's not excatly VN, but it's pretty close right?
and as for the black box, it's called a BODY CONTROL MODULE and it's found next to the fuse box inside the kick panel
i assumed that was the ecu on the passneger side, but appears it's not
well, any advise or words of warning when i check and replace the ECU other than disconnet the battery first and avoid metal :D
and what's this MEMCAL thing? |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 10:59:48 PM
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The best way I can describe it, the memcal is the chip that knows fuel mixtures, spark timings and rev limits. The ecu is just the computer, the memcal is the hard drive that contains all the information.
There's no difference between the VN and the VP in the area that you're going to need to know about. It would still be a damn fine idea if you could get your hands on Gregory's manual 249 "Commodore Lexcen V6 1988-1991", especially if you plan on doing a lot of work on it yourself.
To be honest I didn't think the VN had a BCM in it, I thought they were introduced in the VR. Hey I'm willing to be proven wrong, you got a part number from it? The only thing that even resembles a black box near the fuses on the drivers side is my alarm/remote locking controller. As for the passengers side, the only thing that ever stops me getting direct access to the fan is the glovebox (and the cross-over for my splits). Since you've got a calais, it might be part of the climate control system, but it still sounds strange.
Yeah...the best advice I can give you (and I already have)...VN commodores are all getting fairly old now...if you think something seems too complex it probably is. So stop and ask for help...that's what this forum (and all the other ones) is there for.
Don't forget, when you reconnect the battery, reset the ecu...the book tells you how to do it.
Since you've got the manual, check out "Cooling and Heating Systems", you'll see a picture of the vacuum tank (the thing that started all of this).
A good write up on how to get to the computer is under "Fuel and Engine Management"...at least it is in the VN manual. Check it out...you'll see pictures of the 'control unit'...guess what that is!
If you get stuck on something, stop...have a beer or two...and post up here. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 12:37:20 AM
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hahahha
thanks for all the advice and help through everything mouce
it's been very very tiring, and i'm pretty much over it all now
i've thrown alot of time and money to soemtihng that started out with my air vents not working
i'll get some picts of the BCM when i take it all apart again tomorrow
one guy on the JC forum suggests that i locate the pin/track on teh cluster and match it to the blue and orange pins in the back of the clsuter to determine which ones aren't working using a multimeter
think tha'ts a good idea?
and yeh, saw that i was missing a VAC tank, but the picutre didn't tell me where to look, and by then it was too late :(
thanks for all the help, gonna go tackle the mofo tomorrow morning!
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 11:21:57 AM
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FOUND THE PROBLEM!
i had the FUKEN connections (the blue, oragne ones) at the back of the car in the wrong way!
so of course it wouldn't read the right items, and wouldn't light up correctly!!!!
but now the tacho wont move
strange huh? |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 12:07:44 PM
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also, the lights aren't in the right places
the first orange connection, if i put it in one way, tghe indicators work but not the imobilosr
but if i put it in the other way, the immobilsor works but not the indicators
? |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 12:30:29 PM
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Well...at least you've solved the big problem. Now it's just a case of ironing out the little bits that are left. I would probably suggest playing around with a multimeter and working out just what's going on with that last connector (indicator/immobiliser).
As for the tacho not working, have you checked the condition of the cluster, and have you tried taping it when you start the car? It's fairly common to have to tap the cluster to get it working in a VN.
As for exactly what would be causing the lights to not behave properly, to be honest, it could be anything. You'll just have to keep digging until you find it. Sorry I can't be any help with it, but that's the way it is. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 12:48:47 PM
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hey there mouce
yeh, i'll probably try that too
do i just stick the postive end of the mulitmeter into the connector and the negative into the clsuter, or vice versa? and test for a voltage?
and wit hthe tacho, i thought it might be 'sticky' as the JC guys say, but for 3 clusters to not work?
also, my original one worked, even after i fried it but won't work now
and yeh, those lights are really ****ting me! :(
any help on the other issues? |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 2:29:22 PM
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okay, i foujnd out that the first connector (orange) some of the connectsion to the connector don't work (there isn't any voltage thru them)
how can i fix that? the wires lead into the loom, and not much i can do there
time for the sparky huh? |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 8:50:57 PM
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First up, some of the pins on the connector will have a zero voltage when everthing is alright...they will be the ones that activate the warning lights (engine light, oil light, batt light and so on). So it's only normal that some of them will be negative. You just need to work out which ones are meant to be zero and which ones need to have a voltage.
As for testing for voltage, jam the positive lead from the m/m into the connector in the dash, and the negative should go to any metal part of the car (earth). If you were to go to the cluster it could only measure current flow if there was a completed circuit. Without having the cluster earthed it shouldn't show anything. Test from the connector to earth and see what you come up with.
The tacho is a bit of a strange one, it's possible that you did burn out one (or more) of the wires in the loom, try another ecu (have you found where the ecu is?) and see if that makes anything better.
If the ecu doesn't fix it up then yeah...time to get in touch with a friendly auto elec. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 10:43:18 PM
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great advice mouce!
didn't know i had to connect to ground, i thoguht it was from connector to cluster
but i guess not
it'll be hard to determine which ones need to have voltage and which wont
i haven't turned the ignition on yet, just to II (before the actual engine start)
could be the ECU actually, stopping the tacho
just bugs me that orange connector, different things work in different ways |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 11:24:23 AM
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put in some connectors in wrong today (because before, i at least had tacho)
and i burnt something
now indicators don't work (won't turn on or make clicking noise, only hazard works)
i've tried all 3, and all have same issue
so it's gotta be a common wiring loom issue
here are some picts
[URL=http://img148.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90029_P7230087_365lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img153.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90035_P7230088_590lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img106.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90041_P7230089_385lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img144.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90049_P7230090_353lo.JPG] [/URL]
[URL=http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90056_P7230091_438lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img44.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90061_P7230092_371lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img107.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90066_P7230093_476lo.JPG] [/URL]
[URL=http://img109.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90073_P7230094_398lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img103.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90078_P7230096_374lo.JPG] [/URL][URL=http://img19.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=90103_P7230097_537lo.JPG] [/URL]
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Edited by - timmy_Tam on 24 Jul 2006 11:26:42 AM |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 12:07:15 PM
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You managed to cook something else? Given that the indicators don't work but the hazzards do, I'd start looking at the switch on the steering column for that one.
Allowing for how much luck you're having with this, and how much stuff you keep cooking...get an auto elec in. There really does sound like a serious problem with the loom, I don't know what you cooked, but it sounds like it's much worse than just a connector in upside-down. This really has turned into a true nightmare hasn't it? |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 2:15:14 PM
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hahahha
what started out small has gone into a full on nightmare!
well, i guess replacing the bcm and ecu won't fix it, so i guess i'll call in a sparky :D
well, my bad for causing all this in the first place i guess
just wish someone could recommond me a good one in my area who knows his stuff :D |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 2:58:32 PM
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If I knew anyone down your way I'd let you know, but as I said earlier, that side of town is a bit foreign to me. Sorry mate.
Still...in some ways you've come to know your VN much better than I know mine. I've never had the entire dash out before. Going to have to do it one day, but haven't done it yet.
Actually, there's something you might be able to help me with:
Every time I pull out the black plastic kick panel under the passengers side of the dash, a small avalanche of leaves attacks me. They come in through the ventilation system, where is the inlet for that? If leaves can get in, then I'm worried about what else might find its way in (spiders?). Where's the cabin ventilation intake? |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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timmy_Tam
P Plater
23 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 7:06:41 PM
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thanks mouce
i'll have to check it tomrrow morning, but i cant see anything that could allow so much leaves in
i mean, theres teh heater fan, but that doesn't allow leaves in
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 8:54:15 PM
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The heater fan has to draw external air in from somewhere. So there's got to be a duct somewhere. I'm just wondering if I can stop it somehow.
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Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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