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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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 Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 2:47:56 PM
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I'm looking at replacing my timing chain soon and am wondering if anyone has had the experience in doing this, if so, they have any advice about it?
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VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 11:57:10 PM
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do u haf a manual?
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3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 09:51:44 AM
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If you're going to have it all open, check the condition of the harmonic balancer, the oil seal behind that, it's also worth doing the timing chain tensioner if it's never been done too.
Because opening it all up like that is a bit of a pain in the but, it pays to replace as much stuff in there as you can afford. If you haven't done the CAS it might be worth doing that just for the hell of it too.
Have a really good look at the water pump as well...
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Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 10:30:37 AM
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Pretty sure it says what car i have underneath each of my posts...
Well this is what i know so far, the harmonic balancer is fine, as is the seal behind it. A mechanic has told me that the CAS is not stock and another mechanic told me that when he last changed a timing chain on a commodore (i think he said it was a VR or something similar to a VN) that when it all comes off the sump oil seal or somthing like that gets upset if its in bad condition and will leak oil if its not replaced and the only way to do that is to lift the engine out. Hence why i'm asking if anyone has had the experience of doing this. |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 9:28:26 PM
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cas wtf?
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 11:34:00 PM
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| CAS: Crank Angle Sensor, tells the ECU the position of the crankshaft so it knows which cylinder to 'spark', and can also adjust timing a bit if it needs it. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 28 Aug 2006 : 05:28:21 AM
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oh duh !!!brain stopped!!
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 11:21:28 AM
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| Would it be a good idea to get the Gregory's Workshop manaul before going ahead? |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 11:46:20 AM
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| Yes. Simple as that. It's even got pictures of a whole lot of things that will make the job easier. If you ever plan on working on your car, either the Gregory's or the Ellery manual is a really good place to start. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 30 Aug 2006 : 9:39:38 PM
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Ellery's and the gregory's if u can afford them as 1 has stuff the other don't visa versa!
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pizzadude213
P Plater
58 Posts
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Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 8:52:27 PM
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| yeah Gregory's Workshop manaul is very good since i got one after buying my baby its just easy to pull apart and fix and that **** get one foxtrot.tango if u like ya car lol |
go the vn beast!!!!!!!!!!! |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 8:59:47 PM
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| like I said between the 2 theres not much u cant do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 9:24:11 PM
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| Or either one of them and this forum ;) |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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trizo
Forum Moderator
3091 Posts
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Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 9:27:46 PM
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| sumtimes just mouce lol!!! |
3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 31 Aug 2006 : 9:55:00 PM
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| Well...one of my special how-to's anyway...that always helps |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 12:14:03 PM
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Should i get a Rollmaster of JP Performance timing chain set?
And when taking off the timing chain cover, should you take out the oil filter and in which case do you have to get a new one or can you reuse it? |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 10:22:30 PM
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Well i have sucessfully changed my timing chain and tensioner, and the engine runs fine (obviously no harsh rattling and maybe a bit more power/torque)except for one thing. There is a very chronic, though not harsh shudder/vibration coming from the engine. It gets worse/better at different RPMs and worse under load. The sound dominates inside the car when it's at its worst though from outside and in the engine bay it doesnt seem too bad.
We followed the W/S manaul most of the way. First took the +ve terminal off the battery. Undoing the bolt to the balancer we got a spanner and with the drive belt on, put an allen key in the power steering pump pulley and held that in place so the balancer wouldn't turn while unscrewing. When pulling the balancer off we first tried to wedge it off with a crowbar until we bent one of the vanes which run between the CAS. Then decided to go buy a puller. Managed to straigten the bent vane as best we could. Uncliped the oil pump electrical connector and uncliped and unbolted the CAS.
Taking the water pump off was very tricky and ended up breaking off the smaller bolts inside the water pump due to corrosion and had to drill them out The metal pipe towards the back had to come out and was a pain in the arse to do so.
With a lot of levering and elbow grease we managed to take the cover off the water pump then the timing chain cover itself. Inside we found the chain very loose and the tensioner flaping about uselessly and broken. The crank was not set up for the 1st cylinder to be TDC so you could not line up the dots.
We took off everything, the chain, gears and the gear which drives the camshaft balancer. From visual inspection there is only one way everything can go back on unless the crank is moved which couldnt be done with out a lot of grunt and grip. With a close inspection we matched up the the new chain/gears with the old ones and (after lubrication with new oil) slid it back on.
The rubber sump gasket was cracked but we managed to put the cover back on (with the new gaskets) without upsetting it though it was tricky. Put the water pump back together and all the attaching hoses and metal pipes. Eveything thing was pretty much put back on in reverse.
Before starting the engine we gave a final once over to make sure everything looked good and filled the coolant system back up. We decided to be safe and unplug the spark plugs from the coil pack and crank it over once to make sure nothing drastic was going to happen when we started it. Everything went fine. Pluged it all back in and turned the ignition on. Everything went accordingly. We didn't rev to 3000rpm the first time just in case something went wrong. the engine stalled when reving it so the second time we reset and reved to 3000rpm for 10secs. The exhaust smelt and coloured the same, everything sounds the way it should and no engine lights where flashing. Took the car for a drive round the block and straight away could tell something was wrong with this vibration/shudder. I can drive the car fine and it still feels like it has the same power band.
What could be wrong? Please everyone brainstorm. I am so happy that we managed to get it all back together and there are no oil leaks except for a little bit off coolant from the rubber hose. I have never felt this vibration before and and its happens with or without the transmission engaged. The closest thing i've felt to this and its rarely happend is starting in the morning and straight away she'll run fast idle but really rough with vibration similar. When it first happend i tried to rev the engine to make it go away but it stalled straight away. The other times i just left it sit for 20secs and its gone. |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 10:24:24 PM
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| I am also very soon going to flush the oil out with some Black and gold oil to get any crap out and then with a new filter put Penrite back in. As welll flush the coolant system out. |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 10:30:14 PM
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From my hoping guess, it's something maybe to do with ignition/sparkplugs, possibly injectors or sensors. Maybe it's the balancer though for that i would have thought it would get continually worse as RPM rises. I've let a mechanic have a quick look and he said the balancer is fine and it could be your ignition.
Worst case maybe the timing chain is out a tiny bit and the engine vibration is caused by the bad timing and the ECM trying to compensate. Also i noted that the camshaft balancer spun fairly freely. If this is stuffed could that cause a vibration as big as what i'm experiencing? |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 11:12:40 PM
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Allowing for the fact that you didn't do anything to the plugs/injectors I'm going to more or less rule them out. The noise is new, and so is the work you just did on the car...as with any fault tracing, always start with the last thing you changed. There's a chance that it's completely unrelated, but I'm thinking that it's linked to what you did.
Since you didn't align things around #1@TDC (just out of interest why didn't you?) it's quite possible that everything is just a couple of degrees out of sync, and that could be enough to create this shudder. It's also possible that the bent vane running through the CAS is causing you problems. Something else which is worth considering, is when you had it all apart did you test for end-float in the crank shaft? It might be that your bearings aren't too healthy. Especially since you decided to attack the harmonic balancer with a crow-bar.
It's possible that it's the balancer, but if it was that you'd be able to see some cracks in it. When you say you noticed the camshaft balancer spun freely, how did you test that? Especially given that you didn't have anything lined up to #1@TDC.
If it were the injectors/plugs you'd have an idle that is much worse than normal, but once you get up to about 2500rpm the engine will either die, or run like a dream. As for sensors, if one of the sensors has packed it in, you should be getting an engine warning light (check for codes anyway).
I'd be inclined to say that something is either a bit loose, or is a bit out of alignment. For your sake, I hope that it's just a bolt that's not torqued up properly, because if the timing has shifted...I don't want to think about how to fix that one.
One thing to note, it's usually a better idea to remove the negative lead from the battery, not the positive. Either will do the same job, but removing the negative is a little safer.
With the oil flush that you're going to do, a bit of black and gold oil and a bit of a commercial available engine oil flush (or just diesel which is what most of them are anyway). The only problem with 'flushing' the oil system is that sometimes it dislodges a whole load of gunk from places and it gets trapped in the oil pickup in the sump. The only way to fix that is to drop the sump and clean it by hand :( And that's something that NO-ONE likes to do. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 06:28:13 AM
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Well whats the best way to align things TDC?And also whats the main advantage in having the engine lined up to #1@TDC? Just put things back on the way they came off. There is only one way the timing can be put out is if you rotate the crank after taking the chain off. The top gear can only go on one way and the new bottom gear can go on multipe ways due to its design (the old one only has one slot. We compared the dots up with the old setup and slid the new one on.
How to you test for end float?
The one thing that i can think of that might be stuffed up is the gear which sits under the top gear of the timing chain. Its teeth are diagonal so it can only mesh one way with the camshaft balancer gear. As we took that off i spun the camshaft balancer and it felt like there was no resistance. I could see no way of lining it up the way it was before. Foolish mistake i think in retrospect.
Would the worst case in my sitiuation be having to pull it all apart again and check it all out?
With the oil flush, is there no point in doing it unless your going to clean the sump? And i also thought it was a bad idea to flush older engines as the build up of sludge can be necessary. I thought i would just empty my current oil, replace with B&G, run the engine a couple of minutes, empty that then put penrtie and a new filter back in. |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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FXST01
P Plater
37 Posts
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Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 5:28:20 PM
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| The balance shaft has to be aligned with the camshaft gear, and the camshaft sprocket has to be aligned with the crankshaft markings. There are two markings to be used. Have pictures if you require them, just have to scan them. |
Illegitimi Non Carborundum |
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mouce
National Driver
1525 Posts
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Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 6:47:39 PM
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It's sounding like the cam balancer is out of alignment with the cam shaft (because you gave it a spin). I could be wrong on that by the way, but it sounds like the most obvious thing.
The big advantage to having the engine at #1@TDC is that it's how the engine was put together and that's how everything (all the markers) line up. Since it's such a tough thing to turn by hand, when you do it next time, just pull out the spark plugs, then there's no compression in the cylinders and you can line it up perfectly.
Testing for end float involves a handy little piece of gear called a 'dial gauge', which can be used to measure tiny little wobbles in the shaft. I wouldn't worry about that too much, it sounds like it's just the balancer. That said, I wouldn't be driving it too much until you get the balancer lined up properly, I couldn't imagine it being too good for the engine if it's all unbalanced. |
Bite off more than you can chew, and chew like hell - Peter Brock (1945-2006) |
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foxtrot.tango
P Plater
86 Posts
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Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 8:15:36 PM
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| Ok i'll take it all apart again and check it out. The pictures would be great, thanks. |
VN Executive 1988 - Auto 3.8V6 |
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